[Justintoxicated]

Hey guys new to the forum and joined to get some advice.

Would I be better off getting some new cases and refurbished bottom end or trying to restore the one I have. Here is what is going on:

So I'm waiting for a case splitting tool before I can continue to take down the motor.

I don't know who, when or why someone did this to me, but I must be a bigger asshole than I imagined. It probably happened on a Glamis trip, but I don't ride the R every trip to the dunes so it may have happened on a prior trip.

Second to last trip last year, I took my 250R for a ride because I didn't have enough gas for the banshee (last ride of the trip). When I got back to camp the thing was barley running and it had lost all it's compression. So about a month ago I had the cylinders bored and honed and picked up a new piston. Once I got it all together it started right up, but was making all kinds of strange noises.

So I pulled it back apart and this time I measured everything, and well, everything was perfect to spec.

So then I pulled the drainplug.

Sabtog 250r by Glamisduner, on Flickr

Well that's not looking too good so I pulled the clutch cover.
Sabatog 250r by Glamisduner, on Flickr


I found about 6 stones in there this size.
Sabatog 250r by Glamisduner, on Flickr

So I think the noise was caused my a counter balancer bearing failure (tons of runout), the bearing is messed up, as are probably all the bearings in this motor.

So what to do now? Most of the gears so far look ok (the one that turns with the counter balancer gear shows wear), but should they be replaced anyways? I haven't cracked the case due to needing a case splitter. I doubt I'll ever find out who did this to my quad, but I want to get it fixed. Should I buy a rebuilt bottom end? Just replace all the bearings and seals if all the gears look fine? The cost of a new bottom end is about 1/2 the value of the quad.


I'm going to pull the clutch cover off the banshee tomorrow to make sure they didn't hit my banshee too (which is also broken), I think whoever did this did it while I was out on a ride or at least that's all I can hope.

Any advice on how to proceed is appreciated.

 

[Here 2 help]

I'd like to help you, but what you have is a dinosaur and not all that you might need is available.

The bearing on the RH end of the counter balance shaft is part of the shaft. To replace it you need a new $270 shaft plus the other bearings.

The grunge in the clutch cover is indicative of years of use and too few oil changes. Also possibly the incorrect type of oil.

I presume the R is about an 88 model - if so, I am not aware or where you would buy a rebuild lower end.

Now based on the video - I would first guess the rattle is caused by the piston - you need to take the top end off and inspect the piston - it is not uncommon to seize these motors especially with today's alcohol blended fuels.

Since you have the clutch cover off - try shaking the crankshaft up and down to observe the condition of the main bearings - should not be any up and down - in and out is ok

Let me know what you figure out

 

[Justintoxicated]

I'd like to help you, but what you have is a dinosaur and not all that you might need is available.

The bearing on the RH end of the counter balance shaft is part of the shaft. To replace it you need a new $270 shaft plus the other bearings.

The grunge in the clutch cover is indicative of years of use and too few oil changes. Also possibly the incorrect type of oil.

I presume the R is about an 88 model - if so, I am not aware or where you would buy a rebuild lower end.

Now based on the video - I would first guess the rattle is caused by the piston - you need to take the top end off and inspect the piston - it is not uncommon to seize these motors especially with today's alcohol blended fuels.

Since you have the clutch cover off - try shaking the crankshaft up and down to observe the condition of the main bearings - should not be any up and down - in and out is ok

Let me know what you figure out

Thanks for the reply, but I think you didn't read my post. The grunge in the clutch cover is from someone throwing a handful of sand and rocks into the clutch case through the oil fill port. It is not from years of use and no oil changes unless someone can explain how the rocks got in there . The internals were all in great shape when I bought the thing about 5 years ago, just needed a new clutch. Oil gets changed almost every to every other trip with honda brand oil too (unless it does not get ridden).

Rebuilt counter balancers are available for about $80. Bearing kits cost more, and gears even more. Not sure whether all new gears are required or not though. A complete rebuilt bottom end is about $800 with powder coated cases (no crank stator etc)

This particular TRX is an 86.

Again in my post I mentioned a new top end bore, piston etc, when I tore it back down because it sounded like piston slap, the crank and rod clearances, piston to cylinder and ring gap were all correct. The counter balancer bearing has a ton of slop so I'm guessing that's what was causing the noise (wore out due to someone putting sand and dirt and rocks into my engine (I think while I was off on a ride or sleeping in the trailer).

The motor is completely apart aside from splitting the cases.

I like to think of it as a classic rather than a dinosaur.

 

[Here 2 help]

OK

In most cases - the sand (and/or rocks) simply settle to the bottom of the transmission and lay there. There is no oil pump or filter. The transmission, clutch and counter balance is oiled by splash. Ball bearings are very durable. They will grind up sand and function for years, but sand is not going to extend the life of the bearing. From the pics, it didn't appear that two stroke transmission oil (automatic transmission fluid) is what had been used. (Pictures may be worth a 1000 words, but many times do not expose the details)

The motor seemed to perform normally in the video (other than the rattle), so the counter balance might be the primary source of noise.

I cannot make the determination on the bottom end. That's done by the servicing technician. Plan on replacing all the bearings and seals - inspect the gears for abnormal wear or damage, if none is found, I would suggest re-using them.

If you need the Honda tool part numbers - the flywheel puller number is 07933-0010000 (about $30) and the case tool is 07937-4300001 (about $98) and both are still available.

Good luck - sounds like you have a good handle on it.

 

[Justintoxicated]

OK

In most cases - the sand (and/or rocks) simply settle to the bottom of the transmission and lay there. There is no oil pump or filter. The transmission, clutch and counter balance is oiled by splash. Ball bearings are very durable. They will grind up sand and function for years, but sand is not going to extend the life of the bearing. From the pics, it didn't appear that two stroke transmission oil (automatic transmission fluid) is what had been used. (Pictures may be worth a 1000 words, but many times do not expose the details)

The motor seemed to perform normally in the video (other than the rattle), so the counter balance might be the primary source of noise.

I cannot make the determination on the bottom end. That's done by the servicing technician. Plan on replacing all the bearings and seals - inspect the gears for abnormal wear or damage, if none is found, I would suggest re-using them.

If you need the Honda tool part numbers - the flywheel puller number is 07933-0010000 (about $30) and the case tool is 07937-4300001 (about $98) and both are still available.

Good luck - sounds like you have a good handle on it.

I used honda brand gear oil for the engine, but yea hard to tell from the picks because the sand soaked it all up and created a gray sludge. Well I had to put this one on hold because my banshee started detonating the weekend after I found this. Found a leaky crank seal. Split the cases and replaced all the seals, then took it out and found that I had a bad o-ring in the head as well from when it backed the sparkplug out due to the crank seal. Now I have the banshee all fixed and it's the end of the season

So I have been out sick all week so I decided I could get the cases split (yep bought a puller). Everything was going pretty well until I set the engine down to go toss the ball for the dog for a minute. I heard a bang came back to the garage and found the case 1/2 on the floor. Not sure how or why it happened... Anyways here's the damage can this be fixed?

It's where the alignment pin goes in

Case damage by Glamisduner, on Flickr

 

[Justintoxicated]

Tried to bend it back a little with a punch, and it broke right off, didn't take much force at all...

It didn't bend by Glamisduner, on Flickr

But the clutch cover fits on now and I don't think it will hurt anything. Good to go?

 

[Here 2 help]

It should work fine - just cover the exposed dowel area with a sealant after it's assembled to protect it from the elements

 

[Justintoxicated]

It should work fine - just cover the exposed dowel area with a sealant after it's assembled to protect it from the elements

Good idea.

If I put some wax paper over that dowel pin and clutch cover side, could I simply use some metal putty to fix it?

I also found some cases sand blasted cases for about $350, but I might want to sell this thing next year. I want it to be fixed properly for the next owner though, but don't want to waste un-necessary cash since I know it might get sold to make room for a side by side. It's a great quad! Will be 30 years old next year.